Unknown: 00:00:00

Not like loosen the tie and show yourself like I'm so open on social media Jay, that like I I just it stands out because it's so freakin different. And I mean always being ethical and not you know being a clown. But there's a lot of leeway that attorneys have to sort of be different. And so this isn't about being a lawyer. It's about like, you know, having a career or a living and trying to do it a little bit different than the pack. I really encourage everyone to try to be a little bit different and your flavor, right, be authentic to who you are. I think that's where big things happen, truly. So just quick point, just before we go on, I think it's important to be consistent, right? So as you build up your list, you can't just be a random visitor into inboxes or mailboxes like, I am going to hit your mailbox and your inbox frequently without interruption. I think that's the key. A lot of lawyers don't see immediate results, you give up on it. And say there's times where I'm like God this is working on it's not worth the effort. But then a good case comes along or someone says, Hey, I saw your newsletter. I love it. Okay, good. Thanks. For podcast, right? We do a podcast or The Earley Show. Just got a very nice message from someone very influential in this industry. So I said, Okay, this podcast is working. Let's keep doing that. Let's lean into it even harder now.

IMFLF Intro: 00:01:16

Welcome to the 10 Golden Rules of internet marketing for law firms podcast, featuring the latest strategies and techniques to drive traffic to your website and convert that traffic into clients. Now, here's the founder and CEO of 10 golden rules, Jay Berkowitz.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:01:39

Well, good morning, good afternoon. Good evening, whatever time this podcast finds you. Welcome to the 10 Golden Rules of internet marketing for law firms podcast, we've got a great guests today. Before I start, I just want to ask you for a quick take a minute, give us a five star rating on iTunes or a thumbs up on YouTube of subscription on YouTube helps us a lot and get great guests like Chris. And when they see we've got a big following obviously makes it a lot easier. So give us a minute do that. And let's get into it. Chris Earley, really stands out to me at all the conferences, we go to some of the same conferences, and his social media is always pinging in my, in my stream, so I thought I wanted to spend some time with Chris today and learn about him and learn about how he does it also welcome, Chris.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:02:27

Jay, appreciate you. Thanks for having me on. I see you on the conference trail I see you getting after it. So I'm really excited to talk with you today. Thanks again for having me on. Appreciate it.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:02:35

So I like to start with this question. You know, What's your why? Why did you become an attorney and, and what's driving your to your success? Yeah.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:02:44

So I really, I graduated college with a liberal arts degree, couldn't get a job. So. So I decided to go to law school, it gave me some time to bide time and decided I was going to do because I don't mind school and kind of put my head down and studying. So went to law school, really without a plan. And I came at a loss without a job. So really, by necessity, I just sort of hung a shingle. And it's really out of sheer necessity and just ignorance and that was 20 years ago. And so there's been a lot of growth, success failure, learned a lot. But that's kind of what's taken me here. I don't have a conventional lawyer story where you know, Mom and Dad were litigators and knows nothing of that sort. So, got here today, a little unconventionally, and so, but I'm grateful to be part of a wonderful organization that we're growing here and building, but my wife is really my family. You know, that's, I look at this the law firm as an engine for me to have the life that I want to have with my family. And so happy to get into that. But that's really My why is my family being a dad? You know, the dad that I didn't have? It's a very purpose driven motivations here. Purpose Driven law firm that serve what we're doing here. Yeah.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:03:57

So you're telling me, you're really excited? It's a little league season so so let's start with the dad first. Tell us about the coach and the dad. Yeah,

Jay Berkowitz: 00:04:06

I mean, so you know, today we have a literally game and I sponsor my kids team. I bet kids baseball team I do every year, as a little marketing side. That's, that's that grassroots marketing really works. That community base Mark probably spent 500 bucks to get my name like, literally my kids, Little League team jersey. I mean, you can't go wrong. You're supporting Little League or sporting organizations locally, you're getting your name out there sort of hyper for hyperlocal marketing. Yeah, more importantly, to be makes my heart feel full. Seeing my kid be proud of that dad is sponsoring the team that's coaching the team now just showing up. I think, if you can figure out, build your law firms that you can have as much time as possible, right to be on the field with your kids doing what they do. So they see mom, they see dad there. I think that's really important. That's my why right? But just being involved with Coach they'll be involved coaching is for as long as they'll let me until they kick me out. And my sense is I'm not cool enough to coach anymore. So until that day happens, Jay, I'm gonna stick around for as long as I can.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:05:09

Hopefully he gets, he gets so good that, you know he exceeds your ability to be the coach, right?

Jay Berkowitz: 00:05:15

That's hard to do.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:05:18

And you guys are mostly personal injury, right? So

Jay Berkowitz: 00:05:22

we do if it's all I've ever done is personal injury, you know, very fight focused, or hyper focused approach to law. This is what we do. Yep. And based

Jay Berkowitz: 00:05:30

in Boston, that's right. Yep. Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting, like you said, the, the hyperlocal, marketing for 500 bucks sponsoring the team and, and obviously, being a part of the team. But that really drives some cases, and you get some business from that. I

Jay Berkowitz: 00:05:46

really do. And it's a slow burn, you know, you know, just, you know, I do little things like my daughter plays soccer. So I've got for $800, I have a banner in the arena where she plays, right, that's short money. But yet, you're always there, right? Really Law Group is just there. And I think community marketing isn't like an immediate shot in the arm where you start getting cases. But it's part of this kind of additive strategy of just, you know, building marketing assets on top of each other, you don't have to break the bank. They really feel like attorneys don't tap into that enough, you could sponsor a team and also Jay, this, you know, goes to something that you're you are passionate about SEO, you get a backlink, right? You get a backlink from literally, you get a backlink from the soccer organization, those that said Nice to meet authority, actually, that stuff helps, right? Sometimes you have to ask, and you have to add a good point. And you should ask, there's nobody saying I'm

Jay Berkowitz: 00:06:45

trying to make famous, it's write a check, get a link, right? Go to LinkedIn. And so many people forget that. And I say there's a huge value. Like you're right, that $800 Check for the sign at the soccer stadium. And you just want to ask like, yeah, hey, I'm back again this year, and my daughter's on team anymore, but I'm happy to participate. But one thing is I want to make sure I get a link from the team website or from the Facebook page or both. And that really, really adds up those local links have credibility for SEO. So great point. And you have to ask or put it in the negotiation sometimes it's yeah, there occasion but you know, that's, that goes to like your investigators and your court reporters and everyone you do business with, write a check, get a link in those local links that especially the relevant ones, like the court reporters and, and the crash investigators, so those are awesome. So, so super day, how much better do you think it is? Like when you're involved with the team? You're the coach, like, then everybody really knows who you are? And probably the team? God forbid some someone on teams involved in an accident, you get the call, but does it stretch out to other teams? Like does it have tentacles that way? Yeah, so

Jay Berkowitz: 00:07:56

just for as an example, right, last night, a coach, you know, and then a lot of marketing lessons, I feel like with baseball anyway, I go to my son's little league game lesson a coach and, and I had on you know, Earley Law Group shirt, and everyone else has, you know, baseball shirt, something cheese, I feel like I stick out like a sore thumb. But that's kind of a good thing. It's like you don't want to, you don't want to be wearing who else is wearing. So I feel like sometimes a little like, it's just over the top, like when I speak on stage or where merchandise, you know, and I learned that from a lawyer, you know, here's where you have to self promote, right? You can't be shy about getting your brand out there. So So yeah, I mean, like, I've gotten you know, good cases locally because they trust me I keep showing up. And I'm not the kind of coach is going to yell at your kid I'm going to support your kid and support healthy modeling of you know, supporting kids so say see, oh, this guy Earley seems like a decent dude. Let me check them out. Check them out online right? Maybe they see the billboard maybe they see me on social these trust clues we try to develop right? And just be everywhere and have a 650 reviews we're at right just always generating that, that that turning the wheel I call it right as positive activity. Because you know, you know, you're a digital marketer, right? It's not just treating your clients. It's not just like, one thing of do a lot of things is good as you can possibly do them. And then the more the better you do, the better the digital works. I feel like this holistic approach. But you know, yeah, but hyperlocal stuff. You know, being on social tag, literally great language, just one One example of this approach of just trying to leverage your assets, your marketing dollars stretching your your marketing dollar, because it's not like a direct ROI and Little League investment. Right.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:09:43

Obviously, it's a passion, it's passion for you, you know, doing it

Jay Berkowitz: 00:09:47

is yeah, nice.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:09:51

A nice benefit. Give us a ballpark like in a great month. How many cases do you assign and how many come from rough pearls it's top of mind for me because we're doing a referral as a webinar topic this month. Wonderful.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:10:07

I'm referral obsessed, right, you know, just got just this morning to Attorney referrals. Right. So we really are focused on attorney referrals. And client referrals. Right. We are very focused on customer service that I would encourage everyone on this list on this call right to to really use your list. I stole this from Ben Glass years ago, you have to leverage your list. Right. I'm curious, your subscribes? I'm sure Jay, you have a list. Right. And you're building your list, right. That's what we as lawyers need to do. You know, each month signups increase, right? There's any lawyer listening to this can relate to this. There's months down months, but the path trends upwards, right.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:10:50

But you're talking about your consumer list, right? Like, these are consumer lists as clients 30s. Attorney and logline and attorney. So there we segment. So, you know,

Jay Berkowitz: 00:11:01

I talked about this diploma conference just a couple weeks ago, I write and I don't say this to be a blowhard I wrote prolifically, like always writing to get your name out there. Right. And so related to that is we have a client email list, you have an attorney email list, because I use a different voice speak those two different audiences. So early keeps showing up, you know, on lock religiously, each and every week in your inbox. So people unsubscribe, I'm okay with that. But for the most part, people stick around. You know, at the pelvis summit, I had 60 lawyers signed up for 67 lawyers sign up for my attorney newsletter. We're across the country. That's let's build, right. So that's trying to make the most of the stage. You know, Ken Hardison was kind of give me that stage, I gave my best value at the end. I said, Hey, you know, let's have a conversation, please subscribe to my newsletter. So we can keep this conversation going. You know, list building really important. If you don't have a list, that's okay. But you should start today to build that up. Because each and every day, I'm going to put you on my list Jake now, right. And

Jay Berkowitz: 00:12:04

this is not rocket science. Like, we're not talking about sophisticated stuff. MailChimp, is super easy. MailChimp is an engine where you can send out emails, they've got really nice formats you can use. And you don't have to be as advanced or prodigious as Christmas, you just have to send something out every month. And it can be, you know, as simple as you know, congratulations to our receptionist. She's been with the firm for 20 years. And we got nominated for superstars can be really short and simple. Even better, if it's Hey, you know, here's pictures of literally, league team, we, you know, we won three games in a row. And, you know, congratulations to where employees, they want this community work, just like simple stuff showing showing up. And then the next level is obviously you can create some content. The next level is you can segment your list like I was talking about, where you're sending something different to the consumers and the attorney referrals. Talk to me about communicating with other attorneys, and are they you know, PII attorneys are the other categories of the practices.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:13:06

So I try to speak to as many attorneys as possible, they tend to be consumer facing, you know, PII, bankruptcy, criminal real estate. So just quick point, just before we go on, I think it's important to be consistent, right? So as you build up your list, you can't just be a random visitor into inboxes or mailboxes like, I am going to hit your mailbox and your inbox frequently without interruption. I think that's the key. A lot of lawyers don't see immediate results, you give up on it. And say there's times where I'm like Dallas is working. It's not worth the effort. But then a good case comes along or someone says, Hey, I saw your newsletter. I love it. Okay, good. Thanks. For podcasts, right? We do a podcast or The Earley Show. Just got a very nice message from someone very influential in this industry. So I said, Okay, I guess podcasts work. And let's keep doing that. Let's lean into that even harder now. So I think the consistency is, is really important. But creating the content is, you know, this is sort of this is sort of how we do it, right. So I post once a day on LinkedIn, I have for years, at least once a day of a post performs well on LinkedIn, I'll repurpose that. And put that like in a client email blast, right? Maybe not for the attorneys or perhaps for the attorneys, but always, always having a different message for my audience, right. And so but the consistency really compounds. Now there's, you know, over 600 attorneys on the list, a few 1000 For those people in the client, former client email list, really just hitting people hard. And I do it every week. And I took this from Charley mann who has been very influential on me, on respect for Charley's really helped my career. But when I first started hearing trucks, all you got to do every week I said, Oh, no way. That's true. That's that's obnoxious. Nothing about like twice a week where it's like, I don't have any shame because I have a family to support. So I'm not going to be in the shadows hoping to grow my business like you have to do really be intentional about that. And I don't have all the answers like, I don't know everything that works about say what's getting traction for us of these things that we're talking about. But I think you got to really keep showing up. So, for example, with the attorney newsletter, every month, every week, I send you a practice tip on things. I've learned it at a conference mastermind or whatever, that's a weekly email for attorneys. And each month I'll send to you and your, your inbox, your mailbox, a paper newsletter, which has some more insight into how I run the practice things. I'm learning things I'm succeeding at failing at, but I'll share it. And then I write for the American Bar Association back to SEO. That's a helpful backlink each every month with the ABA. So I'll get the ABA backlinks each every month, write the content, write write the article, and that'll supplement the attorney newsletter. And these are things again, we do we don't miss a month you don't miss a beat.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:15:54

Beloved, do you do have an actual calendar? Like how do you stick to it?

Jay Berkowitz: 00:15:59

You know what, like, speaking of Pilla, I wrote an article on the plane, and like, you know, we all have our talents and like minor, very few, but I don't have trouble just like think, okay, like, what something gets helping me or not helping me my practice to write about it. Because another thing I learned is done is better than perfect. So I'm not trying to write the best piece of content ever, I just, oh, keep making it. And then I think you gotta look better. As you write more, you see what works. You know, I like to start with a quote, you know, you learn a little bit of copywriting and a call to action, hey, reach out to me, call me I'd love to have a conversation with you. Some call to action at the end. But it's not really a formal calendar. But I try to really stay on top. So I don't miss a beat. I try to even write ahead of schedules, the ABA has my stuff at a time they keep publishing that. Yeah, nothing really special change, just like doing the reps a little bit every day, and I try to be perfect.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:16:57

We always say that 99 out of 100 lawyers, we do the marketing for them. So we create a content calendar. But there is the unique unicorn like yourself and my friend Jonathan kowski, who, who crank out enough content on their own. But we'd have this base concept where we shoot videos with the attorneys and get y'all to answer questions. We do a dozen at a time. And then we put out one a week for 12 weeks. And you know that it's a video. It's a blog, it's it goes on the social media. So we checked a lot of boxes very simply. Now, if you can add to that, that's fantastic. The other thing you mentioned is great, like you had a prominent attorney reach out to you. So if anyone's listening to this, give us two minutes up on LinkedIn, Chris, earley Jay Berkowitz, or Facebook, and just say I listening to you guys on the podcast, because we're about 20 minutes in, I'd love to know who's listening, because, you know, keeps us going it sets the juice. Sometimes you put this stuff out in the void. So you cover the marketing stuff pretty well. I want to talk a little bit about another area both both of us are pretty passionate about. And that's masterminds amazing mastermind for digital agencies in a group called the Titans, which is for elite digital agencies. And we all focus on a niche. So it's amazing because you know, the guy who focuses on tax attorneys, the guy who focuses on plumbers, the guy who focuses on air conditioning, like they all teach me so much. And we're happy to share with each other because we're not directly competitive. The masterminds for attorneys, you guys generally like all the personal injury lawyers, there wouldn't be someone in your, in your state or in your direct competitive area. So you all are very happy to share the best and brightest ideas with each other. So talk to me about the power of masterminds, what you've learned and why someone should check it out. If they haven't.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:18:51

You're really serious. I love that you're in one. So what you just said as resonates with me, right? If, if you're really trying to grow a special practice, I think a mastermind is is is a non negotiable because you are there's a certain power and I talked about this, you know, you get on an airplane, you go to hotel room, like you're alone, you're thinking a lot about stuff you're removed from your business, right? They say really nothing good happens behind a computer monitor when you're stuck at your desk you didn't you shouldn't be alone by the way, if you're eating your desk, you're kind of working your desk you're not really like moving forward but I when I travel, I had to leave my family for a couple of days which kind of stinks but I try to shorten the times time spent as much as possible so I'll come in the morning the conference and leave the night that answer just try to minimize the travel. But I make the most of it but with the mastermind. I mean there's such opportunities to grow to be challenged. If you just take away one. There's some masterminds will travel 1000 miles but they got one idea, and I just changed my entire law firm literally Jay like not even kidding. So I'm not looking for like 100 things that's not realistic. I'm not trying to get 100 things done at a time. If you give me a couple nuggets that was worth the investment and you get what you pay for, right? With anything, if you cheap out and you're cheap mastermind group, you're gonna not get the best content perhaps. Right? But before we started this call Jason, I want to be the dumbest guy in the room, literally, because then I know I'm gonna get my money's worth, I normally be challenged, looking up the guys and gals further ahead than me, that levels me up makes me realize, Oh, you got to get after it. Chris, you're not even, you know, you're not even close. So pushing that's the mastermind group does is you got to be vulnerable. You got to be real and upfront with your group. There's good groups, not great groups, right? But I feel like you got to. That's, that's an important room to be in. If you're serious about doing big things in your law firm, because you're gonna grow so much in your office.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:20:49

You guys want to check out learn more about masterminds? We did an awesome session. We actually had Ken from Ken Hardison for belma. Craig Goldfarb, and Adam Rawson, who's a member of a mastermind and Craig and can run mastermind groups and, and conferences and whatnot. So it's on our YouTube channel. And you can check that one out. It's also we, we released it as a two part podcast series. All good people masterminds. And, yeah, one thing that differentiates a little bit, but I think for you and me, like I was in masterminds, we're more like a Vistage or tech, we hit 15 other business people. And I was there always category exclusive. So I was the digital marketing guy. But what's been the game changer for me is being in a room with other digital marketing agencies. But we're all niche specific. So we're, you know, I've got the rock stars and the rock stars in my industry. And I think that's how these attorney ones work so well is you get a top, you know, PR guy from for the top PR guy from California, and they're willing to share all your secrets with you on the floor, right?

Jay Berkowitz: 00:21:54

I 100%. And, you know, one guy in my group, I'm gonna go visit his office, like, see how he does things he's always trying to, I know, you're, you're the same as me, you're you geek out on this stuff. You're a learner. I see all these books on your bookshelf, right? You're learning stuff. You're geeking out on it, right? And that's a favorable word that I apply, right. So yeah, you gotta go and really get into like, but like, it's not just the masterminds, the offshoots of that there's referrals that can come from that. There's, you know, visiting a law firm, there's just I'm talking to him as my fellow mastermind friend today about how he gets records and bills, you know, we're going to talk about that. We're gonna talk about, you know, the stuff we're doing together. So that's like a mini mastermind that can spawn off of the bigger mastermind, but the opportunities that can come about right, there's just such power to that I, I highly endorsed the idea. I wish I did it many years ago, but no point in, you know, looking back, but only forward. Yeah,

Jay Berkowitz: 00:22:43

that's a great segue. We're, you know, recording this in spring of 2024. Hopefully, someone's listening way in the future and, and can give us a shout out back in time. But it's graduating season and every every second picture on LinkedIn or Facebook is someone's son or daughter or husband wife graduating, what advice would you have for law students just getting through law school and writing the bar? What What advice would you have for them?

Jay Berkowitz: 00:23:11

Honestly, che I'd say try to be a little bit different from the pack, because law school is very regimented. This is we put you in a box, and I actually grew and I kind of learned that you don't you don't grow in a box, right? You know, Dan Kennedy says frequently, right? If the majority is going in one direction going the other, going the other direction. And I literally adopt that. And that's been a game changer. So encouraged. You know, that law student who's going into law school next year are graduating law school this year, whoever it is the attorney 10 years out, you got to be a little bit different. And I feel like it's like taboo to be different. As an attorney. It's like, oh, we're straight laced, you know, buttoned up now, like, loosen the tie and show yourself like, I'm so open on social media, Jay, like I had, I just it stands out, because it's so freakin different. And I mean, always being ethical and not, you know, being a clown. But there's a lot of leeway that attorneys have to sort of be different. And so this isn't about being a lawyer. It's about like, you know, having a career a living and trying to do it a little bit different than the pack. I really encourage everyone to try to be a little bit different and your flavor, right? Be authentic to who you are. I think that's where big things happen. Truly, I've seen it. And the more I see it, the more I lean into that it's like, alright, let's continue to just be who we are and go against the grain route. Frankly. You thought about social media a lot, right? What you know, what are people interested in like boring stuff or stuff that's out there a little bit different. It's no different than when you're off social media in the real world, right? Just being a little bit more. Just trying to go in a different direction. It's authentic, you got to be authentic. You shouldn't just go in the direction just for the sake of being a a rebel of sorts, right? Like, I only know what works for me, but I encourage you explore it works for you find that niche and just you know, get into as much as you can and just do the best you possibly can do the reps.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:25:05

I'm sure if you post a picture of yourself in your office, or picture of yourself in your earley logo group shirt with your earley logo Group team on the on the on the baseball field, that probably gets 50 more likes, right?

Jay Berkowitz: 00:25:16

Yes. As opposed to like talking about like, Here's what a contract is like. Nobody cares, right? People care about. I mean, it's some people do care about that. But the end of the day, it's like what's interesting infotainment, right, educating people. And being fun and showing your humans I feel like we don't do that J. Somebody lawyers who just are so buttoned up, we don't want to reveal ourselves. My career took off when I became vulnerable and real unsocial is people like Holy smokes, can't be the guy that said that, because it's all truth. Right? It's all truth. I'm writing a memoir, literally, as we speak, I've got a writing, I got a book coach, writing memoir about my story, because that's my story that I own. And when that is published, like, I wrote about this on LinkedIn this week, like how many lawyers have written a memoir, I'm not patting myself on the back, I didn't go to some ivy league law school, you know, some fancy lineage here? Absolutely not. But little things like, you know, put in the reps to do a book, Think and create huge dividends and further separate you from everybody else. There's so many ways to be different. I've just always tried to hunt down new and different ways to do that. But a book is, is potentially a big one, if

Jay Berkowitz: 00:26:29

it's very important. You know, you talked about finding your authentic self and representing that there was a sort of trick question I often ask some of my, you know, friends and other other folks in the industry, it's like, you know, what's the best performing landing page for personal injury lawyer? Is it a picture of a car accident? Is it a picture of a big check? Is it a picture of the lawyer fighting the insurance company? Is it a picture of the lawyer in court? Or is it a picture of the lawyer, you know, with, with his or her team? And, you know, I've learned over many years of testing, you know, millions and millions of clicks, that the answer is the, you've got to represent your authentic self, and what your firm stands for. And so you've got to find that, and you've got to represent that. And that's what works the best, you know, across all the media, and some other little things I learned is like, most consumers actually don't want to go to court, they're scared, scared the crap out of them that they'd actually have to go to court. So that's one of the worst ones, and they don't want to relive the accident, they don't want to see a terrible accident. So the best answer is finding that authentic self. And, you know, maybe for the young attorney, that's hard. It's hard to find yourself when you're just starting out. But uh, what do you think of this advice, we have a very bright member of our team, Mihai Ella, and she just finished her first year of law school. And last summer, when she was working full time for us, and she was at, you know, she was making a decision on which law school to go to my advice was make, you know, dig really deep on this Mian, this is very, very important. And find the law school that's going to train you on the new technology. Because you know, AI and everything, you know, the very soon, like one or two years from now, the law firm that's embracing AI, is going to be miles ahead from the one that has the books on the shelf. So please, I beg of you do not go to the law school that's going to train you off the books on the shelf. And she thanked me this year, she said, You know, I'm so glad I made the choice I did. And I went with the most technically advanced of the four or five choices I had. What do you think of that? What's the future of technology look like for lawyers? Like you said, I

Jay Berkowitz: 00:28:38

mean, we're not really sure exactly what it looks like. But you know, I think the tech, so private money, private equity is coming into legal space quicker than we like to realize it is right, there's definitely a wave coming. So the quicker that you can run your firm like a business, the better. And I think that's enabled by really leveraging tech and AI. Because, I mean, Jay, you know, AI can reduce your payroll, right? It can, it can make you more effective. You know, think I always try to think about, like, you know, Amazon what they do so well, right, and I referenced Jeff Bezos, when I talked to lawyers, like Jeff Bezos, you know, isn't like you know, pack packing up boxes, and like putting stamps that no people are doing that you set up using leveraging tech as much as possible. I'm sure he's, you know, 20 years ahead of most of us here. But you know, leveraging the technology, and for the entrepreneur, who's starting about or has already begun a law practice, you should think like a business, because that will make you more attractive to outside investors who are invariably going to be coming into the space. And so right, I look at this more as a business. I talk about this all the time as opposed to a practice. So AI is your best friend right now. It's a perfect time to be getting in. In fact, if you're getting into take, you're probably a little bit behind the APR, right, you're probably a little bit behind. So I would encourage you there's no time like today, leverage as much as possible. There's so many tools that you can leverage for for relatively short money, it's just gonna become probably cheaper and cheaper these products as it becomes more competitive in the marketplace. But I think the technology, I think that the firm that can really leverage tech the best wins in this new economy of, you know, on demand legal services, quick results, right? Meaningful quality results, but how can you do it better than the guy or gal across the street? I think that should be be your mindset as you leverage tech and all it all it can offer you because it's it's unlimited. Frank, we're not even we didn't even know what it means it was so new.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:30:35

And I know you're going to endorse this tip. But Justin lovely, actually crushed it last last week or last month at diploma conference we were both at. And Justin also did one of our webinars for us. So if you want a quick start in AI for law firms, this guy's unbelievable. He's goes through like 15 different tools that he's actually using this law for, like how he's using chat GPT to write prompts and training staff and all different kinds of technologies he's using to really, you know, run a business and and run a law firm. And so again, crashing cry, refer you to the 10 Golden Rules YouTube channel, find the incredible AI webinar with just with Jason lovely. He's got a lot of energy to so extra fun, lovely, South Carolina Attorney. Look it up. He's awesome. And he really makes it real, and the contents very, very current. Well, this has been great. And I have a few last, like I call these like my quick burners, questions, and people for years. So the first one is, what's a technology or an app or something used for personal productivity?

Jay Berkowitz: 00:31:48

Well, that's a good question. I know this is kind of basic, but I really like Evernote, because when I get a good idea, if I'm in the shower, oh my god, I gotta write that down. I gotta I got an idea for an article for the NBA, I got a way to improve this system. I just had a good conversation with an attorney, the hallway of this conference. Evernote is very basic to me, I'm not like definitely not a tech guru. But like, You got to write stuff down, you have those good thoughts that come to you when you least expect it. So I do like that, because you're gonna forget the stuff that comes to you. And that's I'm a huge

Jay Berkowitz: 00:32:19

fan of Evernote. And the beauty of it is it's on your computer, it's on yourself on your tablet. And like I keep lists. So like I mentioned this, this month, we're doing referrals for our webinar. And so I've been keeping this this list of all the ideas on referrals that I've learned or that I use personally or that I recommend, and so that that became the structure and the outline of my presentation, or the upcoming webinar of Evernote. Best business books, what do you always recommend?

Jay Berkowitz: 00:32:52

So my my mindset just changed with the E Myth, right in terms of running a cause loss lesson teacher this stuff, they just don't it's business. And when I read Michael Gerber is the E Myth. I sort of think, Oh, this is interesting. Like McDonald's, like how they do things, right? Isn't a different than a law firm. I think, you know, we're professionals, we, you know, everyone follows. What's so special about us, needs us automation. think like an entrepreneur, develop people develop the systems fulfill the needs of the customer, I think you can really do well, that book changed it for me. I go out, there's been so many books, but I think, Jay, that people, the successful people that I study, are they read a lot of books, right? So encourage the audience, I always try to I just read a really good book, unreasonable hospitality was a really good book. Just read it recently. I could go on and on. But there's one other book the magic of thinking big. I read that five years ago when I started to scale changed my approach

Jay Berkowitz: 00:33:54

book. Yeah. Yeah, like an E Myth. I mean, II Miss probably answered. You know, two out of four times on when I asked him, was he really? Yeah. Because, you know, I mean, Tony Robbins says, success leaves clues. And I find that when I interview successful people, they're gonna they've read the myth, they probably checked out EOSC Entrepreneurial Operating System, they have been to Tony Robbins, like, you know, nine out of 10, you know, sort of check off the things that, like Tony says, success leaves clues, and there's no, like, there's no substituting for the things that work for nine out of 10 people, you got to invest the time and read a book, you know, go spend four days with Tony Robbins, et cetera, et cetera. The next one is your top blogs YouTubes or podcasts when they are the ones that you listen to first.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:34:45

I like Ken Hardison is Gregor law from podcast. I was on that one a few years ago, I loved Ken's podcast.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:34:51

He was doing great interviews.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:34:53

Just great interviews. Chris dryers first century mastermind love that's going oh Yeah, I'm going to be going to that conference. And so are you going to that?

Jay Berkowitz: 00:35:04

I think it's in some I'm planning to Yes.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:35:07

I feel like that's gonna be a good one. So I don't want to, I don't wanna have FOMO. So I'm gonna check it out. Those are a lot of pot. Like, I just found a really cool podcast. I have to look up the name, but it's about, you know, finance and little things like that. But it's really I lean into what I'm passionate about, which is business. That's mostly business, you know, podcasts. For the most part really man's got a good podcast, but they don't teach this in law school. That's a good one. So yeah, there's some of the ones that like to check out.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:35:33

Yeah. You mentioned Charley a couple times. He's actually going to be my partner. We're on the referral webinars so wonderful. When you listen to this podcast, you don't have to go back to the YouTube channel to find it, but I will definitely check that out. I'm excited. Ya know, he's got he calls it the 500,000. Referral playbook. $500,000 referral playbook. Paid 500,000 more revenue when you use the playbook. passionate love it. Yeah. Who's your NFL team? Other patriots.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:36:03

It's sad times here and your Foxborough. But patriots man. It was a good run, but it's definitely over.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:36:10

No, we're enjoying it. I'm a Dolphins fan, because I've been down in South Florida for 22 years. So thank you in advance for the two wins. We need them this year.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:36:19

Ah, oh, it's looking better down there. Right. It's like, Yeah, well,

Jay Berkowitz: 00:36:23

hopefully, I mean, hopefully. Yeah. Hopefully I'll turn it around. And then the last question is, where can people find you?

Jay Berkowitz: 00:36:30

Yeah, I mean, check me out my website, Chris earley.com. I generally want to hear from everyone listening to this. So reach out to me, I love geeking out about this stuff, I think comes across that I have energy with this stuff, and passionate. So reach out to me, I'd love to talk with you about your firm. And we could potentially work together if you're challenged by something. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. But I'll share some stuff that's worked for me, that hasn't worked for me. So I'm here to help you out. Let's get my newsletter list. So reach out, I'm always pushing out content, as we talked about, try to help help you move the needle in your practice. So one thing I quickly want to say is what really helped me Jay is giving more I used to be kind of a taker like, oh, like how can I you know, take red, really good book, The Go Giver, we just talked about books that goes like, the more I gave, the more I realized, this is wonderful, it feels good. But I should get like 10 10x In return, I don't encourage listener to give in order to get back. But when you start, like I get up on stage today, talking to lawyers about how I get cases, I just had a lawyer in Boston reach out, Hey, can we get coffee, I'm gonna see I can get more cases, I'm gonna have coffee with her. And I'm going to share how I get cases. Because I'd be really upfront about this, like, it's really hard work. And like, if that person out works me all the power to you, right, but I'm just going to worry about what Chris really is doing and do my thing to my work. But when I started sharing and being, you know, a abundant, abundant leaves, abundance thinker, things really change. So if you're really tight, you know, play tight to the vest, and you're kind of hold your ideas to yourself. That's, that's cool. And all, but I think your growth will be kept as opposed to share, right? You and I are shares, right? We go to conferences, we get up on stage, we talk about things, we go on podcasts, we talk about things, what happens, opportunities come our way. Right? Things that we wouldn't otherwise have access to if we weren't giving of, of what we've had to share. So encourage the audience to give I think it's really important. Well,

Jay Berkowitz: 00:38:21

I asked Chris, one of his secret sauce, and he said it was authenticity, the authentic lawyer and and I think he's really proved that here today. And that's been a theme. That's, that's come throughout a lot of this discussion. The other thing that I call out is, you know, you really talked a lot about things taking a little bit of time, but paying off, you know, so participating in the community pays off giving authentically pays off, you know, doing the podcast and publishing content on a regular twice a week basis, really starts to pay off. And that's one thing that I've learned in spades we are company celebrate our 20th anniversary. But for the last five, we decided to be only focused on working with attorneys. And so it was a little frustrating. The first few years we were like solely focused. But now, after four or five years of getting on stages, doing the podcast every week doing a webinar every month, now it's really starting to pay off. And far too many people quit after six months, whether it's their BNI chapter, or their their mastermind or their, you know, whatever the latest greatest management strategy is but you know, please stick with it. Chris is showing you the benefit and I'll I'll vote for it that you know, just give it a couple years and and stick with it. It works.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:39:39

I love that. I think that's the most important thing that you've ever said today was what you said persistence, right? I can't tell you how many times I go home and like say to my wife, I'm just ready to burn this thing down. I'm not where I need to be. She said Chill, man. Keep plugging away. Then what happens Jay, you get some good news. You get some good feedback at something that you haven't heard a thing about. Suddenly it's getting traction. You have to take your punches. In the face, and keep going, you cannot give up because most Dooj, right, we see it in this industry. And, you know, in the digital industry, I'm sure you see in the legal profession, and we will see, you have, but I know it's not cheap, but you got to keep going that like I'm a king of failure telling you, but I'm too dumb to quit. And I'm like, alright, well, let's just double down on that. If something isn't working, I'm gonna, you know, it's some things don't work, you have to sort of like move away and pivot away. But if you're not convinced I wrote about this mitre newsletter this week or two weeks ago. You know, the key is knowing when to stick and when to when to pull back, right? But if you don't have any evidence to show that it's not working, I would keep going, keep going, right, the more you get punched in the face, the stronger you get, keep getting out. Tell me man, that's been so helpful for me. And I'm gonna get punched in the face later today by something but like, I'll be back at it tomorrow. And it's not that hard to do. But I think you have to be a little bit tough. And that when you get punched in the face over and over, it gets tougher. So get these you absorb the blow so you've taken blows I've taken close, like you said, keep going. And that's where I think big things possible.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:41:06

I'll wrap this up with something I haven't posted yet but I'm going to post it. I took a picture of this stadium when most of us watched Rafa Nadal maybe his final French Open appearance. And right there on the stadium like carved into the you know, the rim around the around the second deck. There was a quote from Roland Garros. Roland Garros is the name of it. Yes, tournament. Victory belongs to the most tenacious and I think we've proved that in business. You've got to be tenacious. But, you know, I thought that summed up Rafa Nadal, you know, he was tenacious, and he would just every single point, every single shot, he was tenacious, and that's why he won 14 times. And that's why Chris is winning. And that's why I know you'll all win. Appreciate.

Chris Earley: 00:41:53

Well, thanks.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:41:54

Thanks for doing this.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:41:55

Thank you, Jay. appreciate so much. Thank you very much.

IMFLF Intro: 00:42:01

Thank you for listening to the 10 Golden Rules of internet marketing for law firms podcast. Please send questions and comments to podcast at 10 Golden rules.com. That is podcast at t e n Golden rules.com.